Wednesday, September 20, 2006

Cell Reflections

Is God really closer than you think? Is He right next to me as I type this? Is He reaching out to me, stretching out His arm as much as He can to try and reach me? I guess the first instinct is to say yes, of course He is, but do we really believe that? How does that impact our living? As John Ortberg says, what if we really believed that God is closer than we think?

Let me give a bit of context. The Church I go to have just entered a period of time where we will be focussing on ‘God is closer than you think’, the series by John Ortberg. We will be looking at this material in our cell groups and in our meetings on Sundays. I love it when we follow a series like this. It feels like we are on a journey together as a whole church, searching out what it means for God to be close to us. It’s nice to be able to go to Church, expecting to take the next step on the journey.

We had our first cell group of the series on Monday night, and I have to say it kind of blew my mind. We went off on a number of tangents and ended up discussing all kinds of massive topics, such as God’s sovereignty, God’s desire for His own glory, (I will write about this later – massive subject, thanks Jo for the John Piper book, its reshaping my whole understanding of God!), suffering, Gods will and predestination. It was mad! I guess maybe we should have tried to stay on track a bit more, but I have to say that unless we had been able to openly discuss what confuses us like that right at the beginning of this series, we would have been unable to see past that stuff to get the real message of the book. For example, if we hadn’t been able to say, I don’t get how God can love us so much if he allows so much suffering in the world, then for the rest of the series we would be sitting there, with this thought playing on our minds and not really letting ourselves hear that God loves us. Does that make sense?

I guess the main question I have based on this first cell group is how do I know that God is really reaching out to me? How do I know that God is actually that close to me? It all sounds very nice, but nice doesn’t make it true. Let me elaborate:

One of the stories John Ortberg tells is of a time where he was sitting next to a guy on a plane who was looking at some pictures of his son on his screensaver. John Ortberg asks him about the boy and the Father then goes on to talk for ages about his son, telling him lots of stories etc, and showing him loads of pictures. This is of course because he totally just loves his son. His son hadn’t done anything particularly special to make his father want to describe him so tenderly, he hadn’t won some special award or made a life changing discovery. His father loved him, just because he did, not for what he had done. John Ortberg says that God loves us in that way. Just because He does. It is like we are on His screensaver and He is adoringly showing us off because He loves us so much.

My reaction to this was eeuugghh! How cheesy! I honestly am not convinced that God sees it like that. I don’t even like the thought of it, God showing me off on his screensaver. It just doesn’t feel right.

I am not wondering about possible reasons why I might feel this way, I don’t really think of it as a personal thing at all, it is more one of logic and theology. Is this actually true? Does God really think of us in that way? What do you think? Do I have reason to be suspicious of this sort of description of God?

Its not that I don’t believe He loves us, of course I do, I know that He most definitely does. Its more one of how He expresses that love I guess, and how we view it. I just see it as too focussed on us. I am worried that I am going to go through this whole series and not get past the fact that we are so central to the message of the book. It feels like we are being self-indulgent by allowing ourselves to revel in the fact that we are at the centre of God’s attention. I am not convinced that we should be.

Sorry, to be negative, I absolutely agree that this material is totally brilliant to be doing, I don’t for one second have a problem with the material or the decision to use it. It’s absolutely right. However, I need to know whether its ok to allow ourselves to think of God loving us in this way, or whether we should be careful when we are studying it to make sure that it is God at the centre of all of our desires, rather than using it to satisfy a desire for significance through the focus on God’s love for us.

What do people think? Could we be in danger of being self-indulgent in this?

6 comments:

Becks said...

hey kirsty, ok, go with me on this one cos i am gonna go backwards to go forwards. Firstly, i totally believe that God loves us like that. That he utterly adores us, hence why he made me to be me, why he's always listening, why i know he cries when i cry. But about self indulgent- its the attitude that you come at it. Take Hinduism for example. In very basic terms (sorry if i'm patronising- dont know how much you know bout Hinduism) Hindu's believe that 'God' is in EVERYTHING!! trees, grass, cows the lot. They are all on this journey that 'God' created. You may thinks cows are not particulary on a journey but by just being a cow they are following natural law- the way it was meant to be. 'Gods' path. Now i'm not saying you should believe that but a consequence of that belief is that Hindu's believe totally in respect and compassion- because God is in everything, everything deserves the respect that God is owed. I know that sounds a bit extreme but if you turn that around to Christianity- we are urged to love as God loved. To get off our bums and do something, to care passionately about whatever it is we are passionate about- like your water passion. All of that is because God adores us. The acceptance of his adoration is not self indulgant, because believing it means that you have to be outward focused. You have to love them that way- how impossible is it?!! that is Gods challenge

thesamesky said...

Yes and no.
Yes because I believe God loves us immeasurably - in the way John Ortberg describes, and in countless other ways. But you have to remember this is just an illustration - it may be helpful for some people to understand God's love this way (someone perhaps who wasn't loved as a child?) it may be more appropriate for you to understand it differently.

However you are right that we are not meant to get so caught up in this that we become self-indulgent. We are to understand that God loves us yes, to feel it, to know it in our hearts, but not to allow ourselves to believe that somehow because God loves us this way that we are worth more than we are, that we deserve grace or that we are anything less than sinful. Like Becks says - we are to understand and then move to love others in the same way, to serve God, to give God what he deserves.

Thanks to Matt Bradley for chewing this over with me before I posted!!

xx

Anonymous said...

Hey, I get it ! Thanks Becks X

Joanna said...

Hi Kirst

First I want to affirm that God clearly loves us incredibly deeply, more so than we will ever know until we get to heaven. Also, I do believe He loves us just because He does. He chose to create us in His image and to love us, and because of our sin we don't deserve it at all. We can't search for things in ourselves that would cause God to love us. We shouldn't shy away from the fact that He loves us just because He does. We should praise Him and adore Him for it.
BUT
I do think the screen saver image is taking it too far and has the danger of making us self-indulgent as you say, or putting ourselves at the centre of God's affections. A far better picture of His love is His Son dying on the cross, rather than God showing US off on a screen saver. I know it is just an illustration and the guy who wrote it probably never meant it to be taken too far, but I think we should be careful that the focus is not on us. We were created FOR HIS GLORY. We are to live our lives so that they GLORIFY HIM. He died for us out of immense love, but we are to give the GLORY back to HIM. The Bible from start to finish is about the glory of God. His reaching out to us and saving us and loving us glorifies Him. It magnifies who HE is, and how awesome HE is, and what HE is all about. When God gives Himself totally to us, and we respond to that in praise and adoration, He is the one who is exulted, not us. True, through God's saving work we will be glorified in Heaven, but it is still only because of Him, and we will still worship and adore Him, not ourselves. God will be the one on display, and we will see just how loving that is.

Surely God is at the centre of His own affections, not us? Before He created us, God as the three persons of the Trinity, was sufficient. The love within the Trinity was the deepest kind there was and can ever be. God created us for His glory...a spilling over of that love and amazing glory within the Trinity, if you like. Creation, including us, is only wonderful because it was created by Him, for Him, to reflect His glory. We are to reflect the glory back to God in praise and exultation of Him. Giving Himself to us is the most loving thing He can ever do - because He is the most satisfying, beautiful, amazing Being. And because that is what He is, He would be denying Himself if He were not at the centre of His own affections.

As I say, I know the screen saver story is simply an attempt to illustrate God's love for us. But it does suggest God showing us off, when the Bible always shows God off. It perhaps steps over the line and starts to suggest that God gives us the glory, when it should always be the other way round. I think if we really want to use the screen saver idea to show God's love, God would perhaps show His most glorious act: His Son dying on a cross to bring us back into a wonderful, satisfying relationship with Him. That would be the best way to illustrate His undeserved love for us, while giving Him the glory that He is due.

Are you reading Desiring God Kirst? If so you may have guessed that a lot of this is using the concepts that Piper brings out through that book and many others! These are not my own thoughts, they are what I have chewed over for a few years, largely through Piper's books, as well as some other things, and I have become convinced that this is a Biblical way to view ourselves in relationship to God. I hope it hasn't been too negative about the illustration that was used, and I do realise I've probably stretched it further than it was meant! I don’t have a Bible with me at the moment, but there are many amazing verses around all this stuff.

Unknown said...

Thanks for your comments. Yes I am reading 'Desiring God' Jo. To be honest, I think that is where a lot of this uncomfortableness (have I just made up a new word?!) with the 'God is closer' stuff comes from. Its just so hard to strike a balance in my head between God totally loving us, and God totally loving Himself. I know there is a balance and they can both be true at the same time, but its hard to get it round my logical brain. Also, I agree with you that the problem with the screensaver thing is that it puts us at the centre of His affections rather than Himself and His own glory. I am glad someone else feels as strongly about it as I do. I totally cringed when I heard it.

Think its going to take me a long time to chew over all the stuff that John Piper presents. Its very complicated sometimes, and it really shatters some of my pre-concieved ideas about God. It also brings up a heap of huge questions. I am sure one of my posts in the not too distant future will be focussed on God's sovreignity in terms of John Piper's view of things. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on that stuff!

xxx

Joanna said...

Ha ha! I know, he can be v. complicated. As I say I have been reading his stuff for a few years now and it has taken a lot of chewing over and study to be convinced. And it can be hard when the view you have always had of God is challenged. This has happened a few times for me with other stuff too. At the end of the day you need to make up your own mind on these things by asking God to help you understand the Bible with an open mind, ready to be challenged to learn something new. You may or may not be convinced by an author, and it is being convinced by what the Bible says at the end of the day.

We should chat about it properly some time!

xx